Both teams are pugs, but team B has a 3-man elite mini group. Average rating of team A is 1860, average of Team B is also 1860. So does everyone on both teams lose or gain the same amount of rating? or say if Team B loses, will players 3, 4 and 5 drop more points than players 1 and 2 assuming individual rating compared to average?
As we have stated many times we have tried many modes and there is a reason we ended up where we did. This is not to say we will not introduce new modes at some point, however a few notes on death match.
1) You can obviously have it without a healer.
2) Even games people consider to be DM have tons of secondary objectives (Quake 3, counter strike, Starcraft, etc.)
3) Objective based games tend to be both more total noob friendly AND more esport observer friendly as players/watchers can go/look at where the action will likely be.
Deathmatch without other objectives lacks things like a reason to engage, a way to break stalemates, and a tie breaker. It also creates much wider blowouts when someone on your team doesn’t know what they are doing (does this ever happen to you that you get a clueless teammate? Heh)
Hopefully that clears up some of our reasoning for future discussions.
Jon
Hi Jon, the problem is the same alpha testers who told you conquest was a good idea are the same people who told you 8-team tournaments (removed from game), pay to play ticket system (removed from game), and QPs (removed from game) were a good idea.
I know! too many players in there goof around treating it like hot joins. Sucks man so premade is the only way to get good winning %.
because there is no in-game tutorial explaining the difference between hot join and ranked, there are probably a lot of people in game who don’t even know there are leaderboards that are just solo queuing for ranked because they hate hot join.
Right. By that logic every single aspect of the game is something developers intended and nothing should ever be fixed!
Remember when you tPvP you make a commitment to your team. You live and die with them. When you abandon your team you break that commitment and will get a debuff like you deserve. If you want to just look out for yourself, go to hotjoin.
If you solo join, you may be alone initially but you’re put into an arena with people who are your TEAM. You work together and you stick it out no matter how bad it is.
Like I said before, it was there in GW1 and it’s coming to GW2 whether you like it or not.
FYI I have never left a tPvP tournament even if two guys leave. I stay and fight till the game is over. Even if the score is 470 – 80. Or whatever.
Because to leave would be a betrayal of the team I voluntarily joined up with.
“When you solo queue, you make a commitment to your team and you should stay there whether you like it or not!”
So where’s the dishonorable hex then if it was so successful, hm?
It’s a game. If you think it’s completely balanced and fair to pair solo queuers up against premades because it’s ‘the right thing to do’ and your ‘commitment’…wow. Just wow.
As long as solo queuers are going to be put up against premades, you’re going to see leavers and AFKers, whether you like it or not. If you actually bothered to make the playing field SOMEWHAT balanced, then sure, add a dishonorable hex.
But until then, it’s a band-aid solution at best, and not even a good one – and it won’t stop people from ditching, whether you like it or not. You should try reading before you post.
that’s all great but there are people not showing up for matches period or quitting in pug v pug as soon as they start losing. pug vs premade is a separate fix from the losers who leave or don’t show up.
In NA it seems like many of the top players queue together, but not always in set teams. If you are lucky enough to solo join into one of those partial premades and win, your rank will really shoot up because you will usually be matched against other high ranks. That happened to me a couple times.
that’s a pretty poor way to do it if that’s how it’s done, it should be average rating of Team A vs average rating of Team B, and everyone on the team gains or loses the same amount, so you can’t “carry” people to high rank extremely quickly.
Also, I view this build as a dueling build, and that’s pretty much it. I would never roam with it over my immortal build, so I swap out skills for dueling.
by roam i meant spvp, being the 2nd or 3rd person to come help out on a point. your immortal build is very bad for tournament. wvw is mindless and many undergeared bad players who can’t take the heat in spvp.
going to have to give this a shot, i have been running a close variation but with slightly different trait distribution and GS + S/P. I generally play more offensively so i will also try the sword/sword version.
Also this build is not meant to really be a group build. It is a good roamer/point assist. I usually go to far point and look for a 1v1 then go back around to assist on other nodes where needed. It also holds up well in 1v2 when using blink/decoy/BF properly even with zerker.
fotm is a term coined where developers actually changed things on a monthly basis, ANet is one of the slowest dev teams ever though, but the term is still used the same way.
Because all of the fancy silverwear was thrown at PvE, the real cash cow of the game.
Funny, because the PvE’rs will tell you that PvE has terrible delivery (ie. No LFG system, dungeon organiser) because they blew all the post-release development time on sPvP.
Playing as a PvE mesmer I can tell you it certainly looks that way when you class gets nerfed in PvE on a weekly basis over sPv kitten ues.
show me one person that feels they spend too much post-release work on spvp lol, we’ve gotten squat
buffs/nerfs have nothing to do with content/delivery lol, sounds like you just mad and arent good at mesmer, they are still extremely strong in pve
The Glicko 2 system is a more advanced version of the ELO system. It is like a subset for one specific case in the entire system, so basically there is a really good rating system in place right now we only have to wait for player score volitility to go down and the deviation between ranks to increase. But as it stands now you have a ranking similar in effect to Elo, the only difference is it does not tell you your number, and it does not dress it up in leagues.
These are pretty much your leagues based, all you do is divide them into how many sections you want and the system will start sorting itself out in time. The problem currently is that we all started from the same ratings so there is no standard of “oh that player is a master, so that is where you belong”, give it time
Chess is an individual 1v1 game, horrible comparison to a 5v5 game and why the current individual leaderboard is quite meaningless since it’s a team game.
if player A plays 1/2 his games on the #1 team and never loses then pugs the other 1/2 of his games and goes 50% he will never be ranked appropriately. bad system is bad.
Are you guys dense? One would expect people to test something that they apparently get all worked up about.
JonathanSharp was correct but not 100% clear in what he said. All that matters really is that your rating is adjusted based on the result of the game, whether you leave early or not and on that he was very clear in his second part of the sentence.
Whether your wins and losses show up on your character is inconsequential, as people do not do this to keep a high win/loss ratio.
So yeah, let me state it again:
1. You can leave a game, but your rating will still be affected
2. When people get all up in arms over something, they should learn to actually figure out if it’s broken first
This can be pretty much proven with the guy on the NA ladder who is 104-1 and only ranked 680th+
or it could mean he had no rating established before the reset and runs a premade during off-hours and therefore only plays pugs since there is basically zero competitive teams playing outside of prime time.
they are vulnerable to conditions. dodge their phantasm creation attacks. use aoe if you have it. when i play mesmer i usually run this spec and rarely lose 1v1, if i do it’s usually to some BS thief when i have no defensive CDs up or a heavy condi class that I can’t burst fast enough.
TESO’s PvP has been uncovered as a complete failure already.
Oh right, I totally forgot that there are people who can see into the future :/
No, but there are people who have played their PvP in BETA and found it to be poorly implemented almost feeling like an afterthought rather than the primary focus.
Why are there other games like LoL where you play in teams of 5 people that have ranking not per team but per player? Does not every player there have some ranking?
WoW does it right, you have a set team with a rating, but individuals have a personal rating, so say your 3v3 team consists of 5 people (2 alternates) If you play 10 games during the week but the other guys play 50 games, you will still have the same team rating as all 5 (assuming you meet the minimum number games played) but have a lower personal rating since you only played 10 games vs the others 50. The gear was then tied to personal rating so you couldn’t just carry a baddy to a high rating.
I think most people expected Anet to do something like this since it’s a team game, but they don’t seem to have the infrastructure for teams at all (i.e. team registration, team rating, etc.) so we probably will not see a proper team ladder for months if not longer.
this is why i love this class. Because even though we have 1 build that is good, it really take SKILLS for you to pull it off. Is not about spamming one thing, it is all situational and different at every encounter. I have seen noobs engies with this build die like the roaches they are because they cant pull it off.
you just cant spam 1 and 2 and win. takes a lot more than that.
also,
dont go to wvw thinking you can own anybody. I have a tanky build engi and i see all these noobs engies with this build. I just eat them for lunch. too easy.
I solo queue all day when I play, and after each map I spam something along the lines of r25 engi lf tpvp with voice comms.
I have still not had a single invite to any organizd group, asides from maybe 1 or 2 people who weren’t using voice comms, so please stop making out like it’s so easy to find 4 others all the time. Maybe when you hit rank 35+ it’s easier, but when you are lower than r30 you may find yourself with no choice but solo queue if you want any kind of decent game.
And asides for learning new classes, Spvp is not an option, it plays like a different game compared to Tpvp.
I have never seen a team come together through the HoTM map chat, so I imagine if that is your primary method of lfg for tournies, it would be very frustrating indeed.
There is a happy medium between a hardcore team and a pug team, however, if you’re willing to try: When you’re in a match, take note of the players you’re impressed with (whether they be your team OR the other team), and invite them to party. Pick up more players along the way – eventually, you’ll have a fairly reliable group together. You may have to be patient, but I can vouch that this has worked really well for my group/groups.
If you have fun with these people, ask to add them to your friends list and hit ‘em up anytime you want to tourny. Be patient; be friendly -they don’t call it “building” a team for nothing! Who knows? Maybe this way you’ll be able to create that voice comm dream team you’ve always wanted.
See you in battle!
the problem is you have to do this every single night, it’s not worth the effort, you finally get 5, win a couple then someone has to log and after that all 5 are never on at the same time again. It got to the point where i just stopped bothering because it was more effort to constantly try to add/spam for people. Then there are guilds out there that house people but again it’s same thing you are playing with different random ppl every night, i’d rather just solo queue and not have the hassle. Soloers are the majority and should be catered too rather than trying to force everyone to find a team.
People take anything seriously on whatever they don’t agree on especially on a model they disapprove on lols. They turn it into something serious that’s not even serious……go figure.
has nothing to do with being serious or not, it has to do with being labeled as a team game and then releasing a leaderboard that has zero to do with teams.
So if player A beats player B 100 times out of 100 with the same class/gear/setup, but player B has 4 friends so he wins more matches and has a top 50 rank, who is the better player?
So you want to match up 2 players with the same class\gear and so on pretending to find the better one…
Ok so let’s put a champ illusionist vs someone with the same rank who never played mesmer…see what happens…or do you want to match up only ppl who play the same class? How you can possibly find who is better if one plays bunker guard only and the other plays bunker ele only? Try to read what you’re posting before clicking reply plz….
i just asked a simple question. Just because you play on a team doesn’t mean you are better than someone who doesn’t. The whole leaderboard system is kitten it is an individual ranking system based on team games, it makes zero sense. If you are going to claim 1v1 ranking is stupid because this is a team game then there should be team ratings only.
That’s why actual leaderboards suck…and pretty much everyone knows it..
yup it’s quite a joke, as someone who doesn’t watch streams I look at the leaderboard and kitten? I don’t know who plays together, which classes their team uses, how many of their wins/losses are from pugging, nada.
1. It’s too well rounded, you don’t have to sacrifice anything. Ironically enough virtually all the other Engineer builds have the exact opposite issue, you have to specialize to even do kinda ok at the thing you’re specializing in yet still retain considerable weaknesses thanks to the hybrid tax.
The conclusion is pretty simple: To adjust the build, ANet need to target it very specifically rather than carpet bombing the class again like they love to do if anyone comes up with a way to build around the inbuilt deficiencies.
2. The build can overwhelm even dedicated condition cleansers without too much trouble. This is a meta game problem and will have to be solved accordingly.
Unfortunately we’ll probably see another blanket nerf, hurting other builds much more than HGH…Remember that there are other way to stack might as Engineer for example and that users of Enhanced Performance or AoE might stacking through bombs and FT would be completely destroyed by nerfs to might duration runes.
Actually, HGH nades is a hyper-specialized build that’s not rounded at all. It has:
—zero interrupts
—zero support
—a ton of conditions.
Your second point is technically correct. This is a build that can finally counterbalance bunker eles and guards. Why is that a bad thing, again?
It’s bad cuz it’s an unstoppable killing machine with unrivaled potential that hasn’t been reached by any player to date. It does have its weaknesses and right now I think a-net should work on bringing sub-par classes, utilities and trait lines up to par, but in the current meta it’s hard not to consider an HGH engi OP.
hey i watched your stream last night; and saw 2 games vs Satarractomey’s team and their ele was owning you at your treb and you had to run away or get team help every time. Was he just really good or what?
you were running rifle/nade though not p/p
yea i watched him play 2 games because there were no hgh engi guides anywhere, subsequently he just made one and is on youtube.
people asked for a leaderboard and were expecting something like WoW Arena leaderboards (team rating, class, ability to click on player and get their personal rating, gear, spec). Instead we got a list of 1000 names and win/loss ratio lol.
That’s why actual leaderboards suck…and pretty much everyone knows it..
yup it’s quite a joke, as someone who doesn’t watch streams I look at the leaderboard and kitten? I don’t know who plays together, which classes their team uses, how many of their wins/losses are from pugging, nada.
So if player A beats player B 100 times out of 100 with the same class/gear/setup, but player B has 4 friends so he wins more matches and has a top 50 rank, who is the better player?
The top and bottom of a leaderboard is usually far away from 50% w/l ratio because there’s very often more players of lower skill level available for them than of higher skill level.
if there’s no reset from start to finish yes. But there was a reset of win/loss after ratings were established in addition to solo queue matches and it’s still ~65+% average for top 1000. Add that to reports of people not in top 1000 playing teams in top 25, etc.
if your 5 man “hardcore” group can get to top of the spvp leaderboard you might have better luck recruiting here, since all you really do is go around farming unorganized and undergeared people in wvw
TL:DR – Conquest is great to some, like myself, while others hate it.
This isn’t WoW – No trinity so it’s not revolved around a bunker, healers, and dps; that would make deathmatch incredibly boring and no one would ever die.
Game modes take longer to make than you think. You want to know why WoW can bring out new maps, etc, whenever they want? Because it’s INCREDIBLY unbalanced. You get 1 shotted as a newbie going into any WoW BG just because of heirlooms and the incredible unbalance-ness of the game.
Rift comes out with new maps and game modes all the time. They have created alternate game modes for almost every map for bonus weeks/special events.
Anet clearly has the ability to do it quickly as seen in some of the “pvp” games they add to their events, they just don’t want to invest any resources into spvp.
Shouldn’t we be seeing win/loss ratios much closer to 50% if match making is working properly? In a good rating match/making system teams should eventually end up at 50/50 win/loss ratio once they hit their appropriate level of competition.
So basically if wins/losses were reset and ratings had already been established we should be seeing more teams closer to 50% win/loss rather than the 65-75% we are seeing.
With people not in top 1000 still posting about facing teams in top 25, it makes me think match making is not working very well.
and to add, a lot of the win/loss % are likely even a bit lower due to people who solo queue in addition to team play. So in reality the average is probably closer to 75-80% if you took out solo queue matches.
TLDR – match making is broken or there just aren’t very many people playing so it is still matching good teams vs bad teams.
From what I can tell and have heard the leaderboards use Glicko 2. Glicko 2 is a rating deviation formula. This mean that teams who have high rating will not gain very much from stomping low rated teams, however those low rated teams will gain a large amount of rating for beating high rated teams (who will also lose a lot more rating than if losing to another high rated team). A formula can be found via google.
low rating team should not be playing high rating teams if match making is working though.
Will we ever be able to see our current ranking ingame? (Say on pvp screen)
It’s highly likely we’ll do this at some point yes. This requires different folks than those who built the boards. We’ve got the people who could do that focusing instead on getting custom arenas and spectator mode completed and polished, we don’t want to take people off those projects to try and get your rank info displayed in game at this point.
when are you going to fix people quitting matches right before they end and matches starting 4v5
1. It’s too well rounded, you don’t have to sacrifice anything. Ironically enough virtually all the other Engineer builds have the exact opposite issue, you have to specialize to even do kinda ok at the thing you’re specializing in yet still retain considerable weaknesses thanks to the hybrid tax.
The conclusion is pretty simple: To adjust the build, ANet need to target it very specifically rather than carpet bombing the class again like they love to do if anyone comes up with a way to build around the inbuilt deficiencies.
2. The build can overwhelm even dedicated condition cleansers without too much trouble. This is a meta game problem and will have to be solved accordingly.
Unfortunately we’ll probably see another blanket nerf, hurting other builds much more than HGH…Remember that there are other way to stack might as Engineer for example and that users of Enhanced Performance or AoE might stacking through bombs and FT would be completely destroyed by nerfs to might duration runes.
Actually, HGH nades is a hyper-specialized build that’s not rounded at all. It has:
—zero interrupts
—zero support
—a ton of conditions.
Your second point is technically correct. This is a build that can finally counterbalance bunker eles and guards. Why is that a bad thing, again?
It’s bad cuz it’s an unstoppable killing machine with unrivaled potential that hasn’t been reached by any player to date. It does have its weaknesses and right now I think a-net should work on bringing sub-par classes, utilities and trait lines up to par, but in the current meta it’s hard not to consider an HGH engi OP.
hey i watched your stream last night and saw 2 games vs Satarractomey’s team and their ele was owning you at your treb and you had to run away or get team help every time. Was he just really good or what?
